357 replies to this topic

[speedyK]

In fact, I must admit I am getting p*ssed off with this disinterest by D-M in accommodating any additional requests from customers.

I am going to test drive the Elise 111R tomorrow

Still no response from D-M...

Test-drove the 111R today – see the "Other Models" section under "111R vs. 360"

[speedyK]

no news about the road test?!?

YES!

The "Automobile Revue" back-to-.back test of VXT vs. 111R vs. Supercharged 2.2 (a.k.a. VXS I suggest for our shorthand from now on) was published on Wednesday, 7th. April. N.B. The VXS is in Swiss emissions tune state at 200bhp. (More is easily possible )

I took it with me on a little spring break to do some serious decision-making.

I'll give you a few stats.: (best in bold type)

0 – 40 km/h VXT 1.5 secs, 111R 1.5 secs, VXS 1.5 secs
0 – 60 km/h VXT 2.8 secs, 111R 2.7 secs, VXS 2.6 secs
0 – 80 km/h VXT 3.9 secs, 111R 4.3 secs, VXS 3.9 secs
0 – 100 km/h VXT 5.5 secs, 111R 5.8 secs, VXS 5.8 secs
0 – 120 km/h VXT 7.7secs, 111R 8.4 secs, VXS 7.8 secs
0 – 140 km/h VXT 10.0, 111R 10.9 secs, VXS 10.5 secs
0 – 160 km/h VXT 13.7 secs, 111R 14.5 secs, VXS 14.0 secs
0 – 180 km/h VXT 18.4 secs, 111R 19.2 secs, VXS 18.1 secs
0 – 200 km/h VXT 24.4 secs, 111R 28.3 secs, VXS 25.2 secs

Standing kilometer VXT 25.5 secs, 111R 26.2 secs, VXS 25.6 secs

Elasticity:
40 – 120 km/h in 3rd: VXT 8.2 secs, 111R 9.2 secs, VXS 8.1 secs
40 – 140 km/h in 3rd: VXT 10.4 secs, 111R 11.7 secs, VXS 10.3 secs
80 – 180 km/h in 5th: VXT 23.2 secs, 111R 27.4 secs, VXS 22.3 secs

Test consumption (total): VXT 9.6 L/100km, 111R 9.4 L/100km, VXS 9.2 L/100km

Noise in cockpit (with soft-top on): Is louder better or worse – depends on your point of view
Standing: VXT 55.5 dB(A), 111R 54.5 dB(A), VXS 56 dB(A)
50km/h in 3rd gear: VXT 68 dB(A), 111R 66 dB(A), VXS 71 dB(A)
80km/h in 5th gear: VXT 72.5 dB(A), 111R(in 6th) 70 dB(A), VXS 76 dB(A)
120km/h in 5rd gear: VXT 79 dB(A), 111R (in 6th) 76.5 dB(A), VXS 82 dB(A)

They say the VXS offers similar perfoemance and torque to the VXT, but at slightly higher revs.

I'm still considering my options (don't like the VXT's weight in the tail), rather impressed how the VXS sees off the 111R ...

Got to sort warranties with D-M yet – not yet happy...

[garyk220]

Figures look great Keith. Ricky's lightened car will be hard to beat with that level of performance

[rubber]

Nice, like the look of this now more and more. Ian

[Steve Crisp]

I stripped down my spare NA engine yesterday in preparation for taking up to Courtney's. The biggest swaying factor for me by far, is that if I traded for a Turbo I would not be able to leave it alone. My car has to have large amounts of my stamp on it - my gull-wing, the alcantara interior, the supercharger, forged-rods and pistons, etc. I know that with a turbo, then only Thorney's spec would do, so it wouldn't save me any money. I do want 220 bhp though, so I must speak to Jon about a bigger pully! (Sorry, being flippant!) Steve

[Bengie]

I know it's rude to ask, but that's never stopped me before: How much do they charge to fit the Supercharger to just an engine. I imagine that a large part of the £5.5k cost is the labour for removing & refitting the rear clam, and other stuff that could be done elsewhere...

[speedyK]

How much do they charge to fit the Supercharger to just an engine.

D-M say any competent mechanic can fit the supercharger.

If you have a spare engine that you want the 'charger put on, then I would ask Courtenay if they can fit it to the motor for you or, if you are adventurous or know a good mechanic, supply you with a kit to self-fit or and see what the costs looks like.

[Bengie]

As much as I'd love to there are a few flys in the ointment: 1)I've not got a spare engine 2)I've not got £5.50, let alone the cost of the supercharger etc But, looking at things, and reading the threads on all the other upgrades, I'm sure that the supercharger is where I will be spending my money, if (when?) I've got enough... Cheers

[Ricky2772]

those stats reads COOOOLLLL.... exp. considering the stock VXS against my lightened/flywheeled toy.... will try to grab a charger kit on the way back to italy on tuesday....mmmmmaybe a miracle will do that they have a kit ready beforehand.... (...and can smuggle it easy with the motorhome...swiss border cops ARE bastids when checking you out!! ) ...better mail felix tho!!

[speedyK]

Sent D-M an email today after a protracted review of my options over the Easter break (and debate on SELOC).

I've told them I have decided to not go ahead with the 'charger and Oehlins.

My reasons are:

1. They want me to pay for a guarantee and are not prepared to guarantee forged con rods and pistons, even if they source and fit them and they don't seem to be interested to make much effort in this respect or wrt a lightened flywheel. I am not prepared to do business on those terms.

2. The "Automobile Revue" test was actually a bit disappointing to me to be honest – would have expected the better power-to-weight ratio of the VXS to have helped it see off the VXT to at least 100km/h if not more.

3. Nobody in Switz. can offer me a harness bar solution that does not involve butchering the car.

4. Nobody in Switz. can offer me a big brakes solution that is accepted by the authorities and no-one on this forum or any where else seems to know about the cost/viability of fitting the 111R ABS module (which I definitely want having driven the car).

5. The cost of upgrading wheels/tyres is too much when I consider that I can get an Elise fitted with the Yoko 048s from new for an extra £260 over standard list for the car.

I must say that I am very disappointed in the availability of parts for the Speedster compared with the Elise. I had hoped that, as Opel are very well represented on the Swiss market, that big tuning firms like Irmscher, Lexmaul and Steinmetz would be offering plenty of stuff. Only the latter has done anything – and bl**dy big, heavy 18" wheels needing lock restrictors and tacked-on plastic grilles are not what I had in mind.

OTOH, I can get a 111R with sports exhaust/airbox taking it to 200bhp, Yoko 048s, harness bar, etc. all from new with no hassle and a 2 year warranty. And almost anything you could imagine is available for the Elise (like lightweight hubs that I have no chance of getting approved for the Speedster here).

Furthermore, I despair about GM "customer care" – Lotus is in another (better) category here at least.

So, am I getting a 111R?

No! The engine characteristics are fun, but don't entirely convince me – especially as there is much talk of a supercharged version in the not-too-distant future .

So, I've decided to leave the Speedster in standard trim and put the tuning cash towards a factory-warranted supercharged 111R – just got to save the rest of the dosh in the meantime and wait for them to offer it with the airbag (as in the US spec.) I don't want air con, but they offer that here – very strange policy

Do I regret my Speedster purchase?

No! I'm sure it is a more advanced, user-friendly car than the S1 111S that also came into question at the time and money-wise the depreciation hit is not that different here.

In the meantime, I shall be enjoying the Speedster as it is. As Purebob rightly says, it's all you need on the road. On the track I'll be struggling to keep in sight of those tuned turbos, but I'll still have a lot of fun trying at Whit at Hockenheim.

[mags993tt]

no news about the road test?!?

YES!

The "Automobile Revue" back-to-.back test of VXT vs. 111R vs. Supercharged 2.2 (a.k.a. VXS I suggest for our shorthand from now on) was published on Wednesday, 7th. April. N.B. The VXS is in Swiss emissions tune state at 200bhp. (More is easily possible )

I took it with me on a little spring break to do some serious decision-making.

I'll give you a few stats.: (best in bold type)

0 – 40 km/h VXT 1.5 secs, 111R 1.5 secs, VXS 1.5 secs
0 – 60 km/h VXT 2.8 secs, 111R 2.7 secs, VXS 2.6 secs
0 – 80 km/h VXT 3.9 secs, 111R 4.3 secs, VXS 3.9 secs
0 – 100 km/h VXT 5.5 secs, 111R 5.8 secs, VXS 5.8 secs
0 – 120 km/h VXT 7.7secs, 111R 8.4 secs, VXS 7.8 secs
0 – 140 km/h VXT 10.0, 111R 10.9 secs, VXS 10.5 secs
0 – 160 km/h VXT 13.7 secs, 111R 14.5 secs, VXS 14.0 secs
0 – 180 km/h VXT 18.4 secs, 111R 19.2 secs, VXS 18.1 secs
0 – 200 km/h VXT 24.4 secs, 111R 28.3 secs, VXS 25.2 secs

Standing kilometer VXT 25.5 secs, 111R 26.2 secs, VXS 25.6 secs

Elasticity:
40 – 120 km/h in 3rd: VXT 8.2 secs, 111R 9.2 secs, VXS 8.1 secs
40 – 140 km/h in 3rd: VXT 10.4 secs, 111R 11.7 secs, VXS 10.3 secs
80 – 180 km/h in 5th: VXT 23.2 secs, 111R 27.4 secs, VXS 22.3 secs

Test consumption (total): VXT 9.6 L/100km, 111R 9.4 L/100km, VXS 9.2 L/100km

Noise in cockpit (with soft-top on): Is louder better or worse – depends on your point of view
Standing: VXT 55.5 dB(A), 111R 54.5 dB(A), VXS 56 dB(A)
50km/h in 3rd gear: VXT 68 dB(A), 111R 66 dB(A), VXS 71 dB(A)
80km/h in 5th gear: VXT 72.5 dB(A), 111R(in 6th) 70 dB(A), VXS 76 dB(A)
120km/h in 5rd gear: VXT 79 dB(A), 111R (in 6th) 76.5 dB(A), VXS 82 dB(A)

They say the VXS offers similar perfoemance and torque to the VXT, but at slightly higher revs.

I'm still considering my options (don't like the VXT's weight in the tail), rather impressed how the VXS sees off the 111R ...

Got to sort warranties with D-M yet – not yet happy...

I was surprised at the results as I would have expected the VXT and VXS to have pretty much the same acceleration performance with if anything the VXS having the slight edge at lower speeds due to lower weight / lower gearing / similar power and torque/ similar tyres and weight distribution.....so I had a little think about it and came to the conclusion that, testing tolerances aside, on differently geared cars the 0-40, 0-60kph are not comparable for the simple reason that the results may be completely different if 0-30, 0-50 etc were taken as one car may include a gear change while the other does not.

In fact this is illustrated by the fact that 0-180kph (everyone in fifth gear) is in fact faster in the VXS than the VXT although it appeared slower at each increment from 80kph - I doubt it suddenly finds rocket ship acceleration at 160kph...

I am not surprised at the difference in 0-200kph times as the N/A or VXS will probably be at 6KRPM plus by then with power and torque dropping off quite quickly while VXT still at peak power. Add to this the fact that anyone rarely does 0 to anything and mostly accelerates from any given speed in the most appropriate gear and I think one will see a clear advantage on road and track in the VXS upto the higher end of the speed range (above 120mph).

Interested to hear others perceptions.

[Ricky2772]

I was at Delta early this morning, showed up w/out annoucement since I did not predict getting there when I left home, so I was holding hopes that they might providing a charger-kit on the spot.... Felix W. wasn't there, but I was greeted by a very knowledgeable and kind engineer, Toni Keller. he gave me all the installation paperworks so to start getting used to them with my mechanic...problem is, they are very etailed, but in GERMAN ONLY... , so I need some sort of translation...he managed to highlight most of the parts , but I need it in written, for my tuning mechanic.... the installation seems pretty straightforward, nothing really complicate, since Delta provides the modified parts, that are: the intake manifold, the EGR ali hose, and the crank pulley . there is a complete wiring diagram for the ECU unit, the actual needed connections are quite few, easy for any electrician to make I assume... so they hurrily tried to put together a partial kit so that I could start installing (would ship the missing ECU and intake next week) , but after 2 hours of very entertaining stay (on my part at least! ), I find out that CC payment is NOT a Delta policy , only cash or bank draft ... so I had to leave with empty hands, but I will drive up again the coming week, when all the stuff is ready, and this time will take the mechanic along... the 2.2 ecotec expert informed me about an inherent weakness of the engine, that is, the valves...he gave me two samples, (pic) and you can see the intake one heavily worn-out on the edge (ther is a visible step) ....while the exhaust one is somewhat corroded on the stem .... ...he says it happens between 30-60K kms.... ...that comes as a surprise to me...that GM ecotec "race" buiding report said the valves were fine even for high-powers, and still have to read of any valvetrain failures .... so they offered me a set of stronger (15grams each heavier) valves they can provide, kinda pricey at 515 euros (800chf) vat excl. ...mmmm....decisions.....

Attached Files

•  worn_valves.jpg   61.39KB   0 downloads

Edited by Ricky2772, 14 April 2004 - 09:02 PM.

[speedyK]

the 2.2 ecotec expert informed me about an inherent weakness of the engine, that is, the valves...he gave me two samples, (pic) and you can see the intake one heavily worn-out on the edge (ther is a visible step) ....while the exhaust one is somewhat corroded on the stem .... ...he says it happens between 30-60K kms....
...that comes as a surprise to me...that GM ecotec "race" buiding report said the valves were fine even for high-powers, and still have to read of any valvetrain failures ....

so they offered me a set of stronger (15grams each heavier) valves they can provide, kinda pricey at 515 euros (800chf) vat excl.
...mmmm....decisions.....

Ricky, FW faxed me details about the springs, saying they are often in a rather bad state and should at least be carefully checked. To quote, "You can trust me, it is like this!" He said they could supply double springs that were specially made for this cylinder head (from Schrick) – don't know if these are the stronger ones the mech was talking about to you – might be worth asking.

[Ricky2772]

Ricky, FW faxed me details about the springs....... He said they could supply double springs ...

K,
are you talking about springs or valves?!?
after he gave me the spiel about the valves, I asked about the stock springs, and he told me they were fine.

[speedyK]

Sorry, Ricky – long day! Should have read:

Ricky, FW faxed me details about the springs, saying the valves are often in a rather bad state and should at least be carefully checked. To quote, "You can trust me, it is like this!" He said they could supply double valvesprings that were specially made for this cylinder head (from Schrick) – don't know if these are the stronger ones the mech was talking about to you – might be worth asking.

[speedyK]

If anyone is interested, saw in todays edition of Swiss weekly "Automobile Revue" that a garage is selling a yellow Speedster with the Delta Motor 200 bhp conversion. Price is Swiss francs 35,900.00 I don't know any more details or even if they speak French or German. I can give the tel. no. if anyone wants to make enquiries. Actually did consider it for a moment myself, but controlled myself – I'm saving my pennies for the supercharged 111R.

[Ricky2772]

a garage is selling a yellow Speedster with the Delta Motor 200 bhp conversion.

I bet its the Delta one...afaik they sold it a while ago...

[Jon]

Regarding times, we do a 40-100 test in 4th gear (on the track) This gets around the inaccuracy of consistant standing starts and gear changes... We have had the following results to date Standard VXT 13.3 Standard VXS 13.4 Sports Exhaust (but not with remap) VXS 12.9 All cars tested at an ambient temp of 5 degrees I will post the figures when we have the recalibration done for the sports exhaust.

[clipping_point]

But are the gear ratios (4th/final) the same for the VX and VXT??!

[garyk220]

But are the gear ratios (4th/final) the same for the VX and VXT??!

No. 5th in the NA (approx 21mph / 1000 rpm) is much lower than the turbo (approx 26mph / 1000 rpm). 4th gear in the turbo is closer to the NA 5th.

Doing the run in 4th gear in both will reduce the difference significantly though. Something like 18mph/1000rpm in the NA and 21mph/1000rpm iin the turbo.


PS I'm working from memory here, so sorry if the figures are not exact

Edited by garyk220, 16 April 2004 - 12:24 PM.