4722 replies to this topic

[Duncan VXR]

PA are a VERY good company and any improvements will become std to future builds. Remember also that we are running more power / boost than when 1st designed so not a quality issue but a redesign to cope ;-) DG

[zebwach]

Nev, the diameter of that intake is simply ridiculous! In a good way. I had a CC split and with out a boost gauge it did lead to other heat related issues. I would certainly think it worth a mention when you order your system, although PA are very very good when it comes to repairing faulty goods quickly and cost free. You have done exceedingly well to squeeze 330bhp out of a K04 on a ZLET. What other mods have you done to achieve this figure? Zach

[Tommess]

You have done exceedingly well to squeeze 330bhp out of a K04 on a ZLET. What other mods have you done to achieve this figure?

Zach

I've done a few things, beginning with a HKS airfilter, 80mm amm, carbon intake pipe, intercooler, top hat, polished Klasen inlet manifold, fully ceramic coated chris tullett 3" exhaust with 100cpsi racecat. Engine has covered 12k miles so far, turbocharger was new when the tune on the rolling-road at Klasen Motors was done.

Here you can find the diragram and some other photos:

http://www.vx220.org...ost__p__1035119

Edited by Tommess, 10 February 2011 - 02:02 PM.

[Nev]

I think I need to clear up something here: The original intercooler made by Pro-Alloy was designed to cope with approx 15 PSI of boost. Since then people have been slowly increasing how mych boost they have been trying to squeeze though them and a couple have split as a result of 20 PSI+. This is simply because the intercoolers were pushed beyond what they were intended to do when fabricated. If you want to run higher boost, you need to specify this when you order from Pro-Alloy. This is what I have done. Thus to conclude there are no quality issues with Pro-Alloy's stuff and you will find them a genuinely excelent company to deal with. I have had nothing but EXCELENT customer service from them. Zeb, I only got 305 BHP out of my K04 turbo, I think you read Tommesse's claim that he makes 330 BHP and confused it with me Blimey Dunan, 80mm pipework is starting to get rather large - is that on Zebs car ?

[Tommess]

The original intercooler made by Pro-Alloy was designed to cope with approx 15 PSI of boost. Since then people have been slowly increasing how mych boost they have been trying to squeeze though them and a couple have split as a result of 20 PSI+. This is simply because the intercoolers were pushed beyond what they were intended to do when fabricated.

If you want to run higher boost, you need to specify this when you order from Pro-Alloy. This is what I have done.

Nev, I have to disagree on this, because on the old homepage from Proalloy, they wrote that they had done extensive testing with a 300bhp VX220 Turbo. The same text can be found on courtenay's website now. So they already must have taken in to account running higher boosts --> 310-340 lb ft torque for their stages, this means high boost in order to get these numbers.

So at least for a stage 4 or 5 the PA CC must cope with a boost of 1,75 bar (26psi) imho.

[cs_]

My VX-Performance Stage 3 with 290 HP with PA CC delivers ~28 psi. I think I should start to worry a bit about the possibility of getting water in the combustion chambers... What I really don't get here is: what "splits" here? The outer housing of the CC? Or the 5 radiators inside? I mean, the radiators should be quite safe, they get the high pressure from the outside so bursting should not occur. I've seen the picture of the uprated CC on Nev's very good project website. They obviously welded four aluminium L profiles to the housing of the CC, one on each of the long edges. Is that all? No more modifications? I'm a bit unsure now, thought the CC was strong enough for any boost you can imagine without getting ridiculous. And 2 bar / 29 psi is quite common for K04 chargers doing max overboost. Some tuners limit the boost to 1.5 bar, but not all of them. And I like the "more power" approach of Tim the Toolman.

Edited by cs_, 10 February 2011 - 02:51 PM.

[Nev]

Hi Tommess, My car used to belong to Alex at Pro-Alloy and was the test car that he developed the first Pro-Alloy inter-cooler on. At that point the car made 298 BHP. Since then, I made some breathing mods and the car developed 305 BHP at approx 18 PSI of steady boost. It was at this point that I got a thin split along one of the vertical seams of the inter-cooler. I returned the inter-cooler to Alex who fixed it for free. Since then it ran fine with 18 PSI of boost for many miles. To be honest I dont know anyone who runs > 18 PSI of genuine boost. Perhaps there are people who get away with it. In the end there is quite a bit of 'luck' as it only has to have 1 thin weld to start a split apart. Bear in mind these things fail due to repeated boost/off-boost pressure changes (ie metal fatigue). Basically, if you want to be safe, ask them for a super strong one with thicker metal.

[zebwach]

No confusion, just me not directing my questions correctly! Tommess - Still an impressive figure. Amazing what difference a big exhaust and a fancy inlet manifold makes. Did you notice any considerable engine bay temp drops when you had your exhaust ceramic coated? I ask as I am about to have mine done. Nev - Totally agree, not a bad word to say about PA. Good people who deliver a quality product. Duncan has got a few cheeky plans to let my engine breath a little better. Hopefully find out in a couple of weeks to the reason and extent of the reason my gear box is in such a grumpy mood. Your making good progress. Have you got a rough date in your head when you think it will be back together, ran in and mapped ready for some abuse? Zach

[Tommess]

Hi Nev, alright we're talking about different boosts... I and cs_ were talking about max. overboost at mid revs (3000-3800 rpm) and you are talking about steady boost at the top end (e.g. @6000rpm). At that range I'm also having 1,1 to 1,2 bar (16-18psi). But nevertheless the small amount of extra bhp (from 298 to 305bhp) will do no real difference in material stressing. I can understand when using a Garrett-turbo with 2bar of steady boost you can get some serious problems, that's understood, but not with the little K04-turbos. The proalloy chargecooler should cope with the boosts that are generated by the K04-turbos imo. @Zach: No I don't have any figures about this. But it's defintely better with than without I suppose... Re the power figures, Stephan Klasen was also a little bit astonished to say at least...

[cs_]

As the CC is made of aluminium and not of clay, I think short overboost will harm it the same manner long pressure will do. It will suffer a little longer, but will fail also some time. Or am I wrong there?

[Nev]

CS_: If your turbo is developing 28 PSI of boost and only making 290 BHP, you must have some serious breathing bottlenecks. I say this as my car converted 18 PSI of boost into 305 BHP becuase I made mods to the inlet track. Do you have things like: 1/ Airbox mods 2/ Larger airbox to turbo air pipes. 3/ Larger top hat. 4/ Larger throttlebody. 5/ Better inlet manifold. As for the intercooler variants, I don't really know enough to comment any more, your best bet is to ring Pro-Alloy up if you want accurate info, I am sure Alex will give you far better info that I can. He is very helpfull and knowledgable. TBH, I think this depate is becomming a bit of a mountain out of molehill, I know how easy it is to become paranoid about parts breaking, but most of the time it is just that - paranoia ! My main paranoia is losing oil pressure, if that were to happen my whole £5000 engine would be ruined (please Jesus, don't let it happen <--- me praying to Jesus !) Remember, I don't really know what PSI boost my setup will be running yet, so the main reason I sent my CC back for re-work is to bullet proof my car as much as possible. I may end up just running 1 bar of boost to make 380 BHP, or 2 bar and 500 BHP, I simply don't know what to expect as I have changed so much there is little to compare it to. Tommess: If Klassen mapped your car on his Dyno-dynamics then your BHP figure must be accurate. I have to say I am astonished at getting 330 BHP out of a K04, good effort ! BTW: As both of you are running such high boost, can you let me know if you have uprated your MAP sensor. If you did, what part number did you get please ?

Edited by Nev, 10 February 2011 - 04:15 PM.

[cs_]

You got me wrong. ~28 psi overboost, ~20 psi at rev limit. And this boost is related to the K04 charger. You will be able to get the same power with less boost with a bigger charger like the Garretts. The K04 has a limit of about 290HP, more is simply not possible. OK, Tommess got some 320+HP with this but he seems to be the only lucky chap that got that high dyno reading. Ask Klasen about it, HP vs. boost depends on the charger. As I understood a bigger charger means a better level of efficiency. I am not an expert, but that's how I understood.

[Nev]

Ah, now I understand, yes 20 PSI steady boost to make 290 BHP is normal. My mistake, I hadn't realised you meant 28 PSI overboost.

Edited by Nev, 10 February 2011 - 05:48 PM.

[Nev]

Just rang up my turbo parts supplier to find out when my water + oil connections will arrive, apparently Monday. I can't wait, as this is the last thing to fit before I drop the engine back in. I have added several reference pages with calcs and metrics etc about the car to the website. Might be helpful to a few people. If you have usefull info I can add to any of these docs, please le me know and I will add it.

Edited by Nev, 11 February 2011 - 05:38 PM.

[Nev]

Due to lack of anything to do while parts arrive, I fabb'ed up and fitted a hatch to the fuel pump. Small write up and pics at the bottom of here.

Also, I realise that I have forgotton to buy a 30 micron filter for the oil inlet to the turbo (this is vital for long turbo life) and might eplain why OEM turbo dont seem to last too long. This will need some AN4 and AN3 (american national sized threads) adapters. Am trying to get hold of ATP turbo in the US, but their not picking up...

Also, I have been pre-assembling some other parts and discovered that the mating face of the Klassen inlet to the throttle body does not quite qppear to be flat. Have ordered a sheet of 3mm rubber gasket material to compensate.

Edited by Nev, 12 February 2011 - 06:44 PM.

[siztenboots]

have you checked the klasen intake to see how true it is to mate to the inlet ports? for the TB port, is the an o-ring for it to sit on?

[Nev]

Hi Steve, Your suggestion is well advised. When I recieved the Klassen inlet I had to return it because the flange that mates with the head was warped by 2mm !! Courtenay took it back free of chaged and machined it flat immediately. Apparently it was because it was from the 'first batch' ;o) I am not 100% sure that the flange that mates with the TB is out, but when I mounted the TB onto the top of the inlet mani, I did notice that one corner of it was not as flush as the other 3 (by eye)... Also, as I have had my TB machined out with a new butterfly valve inserted, the green O-ring that is meant to keep a pressure seal is now right on the edge of the alu material that has been machined away, hence its seal may be slightly compromised. The rubber gasket material will solve any leak issues (hopefully), i dont want my extremely expensive boost going to waste ! Assuming I map it to yield 30 PSI, It works out at approx £300 per PSI !!! LOL

[cnrandall]

The Klassen manifold I had required extensive machining to make it fit. It's made of cheese too so I'm constantly re-tapping threads etc in it. Must have that chat Nev, lost your phone number though, pop me a U2U...

[Nev]

The Klassen manifold I had required extensive machining to make it fit. It's made of cheese too so I'm constantly re-tapping threads etc in it.

Must have that chat Nev, lost your phone number though, pop me a U2U...

Just about to send you my details by PM Randy, you are my leading light in my lonely VX tuning journey, what with you bing the only person in the UK to tune above 450 BHP.

[Nev]

God, I just forked out another £65 on various pipes and bits of hose from eBay. When I get home I have another £50 worth of oil pipe + fittings to order from the States as well. Spend, spend, spend! I am logging all this stuff on my costs page of my website, it should make a few people eyebrows wriggle with shock - I know mine are

Edited by Nev, 14 February 2011 - 04:08 PM.