4722 replies to this topic

[Nev]

 

"i might have to do a late night motorway run with nobody around to see how they cope" Get it on a track nev!

You forget nipper is a traffic light warrior..

 

 

Certainly plenty of those near where I live, sometimes you can even get to 30 MPH between them if the traffic is good - I'm an expert at that !  

[Nev]

I am currently considering dealing with the lack of droop on the fronts shocks at the moment. For some reason my Nitron pistons aren't really long enough to allow the front wheel to droop enough when going over tarmac that "falls away". This can result in the front wheels losing contact with the tarmac over humps and big dips, which is clearly not good.

 

I've just rung them up in the hope that they can supply extended eyelets as a possible "cheap" solution. Am awaiting a call back and prices. Not sure if this is something I can do myself or if I have to send them off to them. I suspect either way it is going to be expensive!

 

Another approach is to drill some new "lowering" holes in the OEM brackets, this would in effect mean the top Nitron would then be about 13 mm lower, thus allowing 13mm more droop. Has anyone else ever tried this, can you think of a reason not to (other than the ABS unit requiring a spacer to mount it)?

 

Black dot shows the possible new location of mounting holes:

 

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[siztenboots]

make up some new brackets , welding practice

[chris_uk]

you will raise your car by what ever you lower them brackets by.. Here is a test you can do.. When the car is sat try measure where the piston rests, (black marker pen maybe on piston), then take the shock off and pull the piston out as much as you can, that length is your availible "droop".. If you measure that distance then compress the piston and mark it open it back up and get the measurement of the rebound. Id bet you have more rebound than bump. Ideally, you want your piston to be resting in the middle of the housing allowing for equal bump / rebound, but As with most shocks, to get the ride heights we want, we compress the piston inside thus compromising the amount of availible droop. How much doop do we need? Well im looking at a caymen s here and it has 4" of droop. An S2 elise has 1.5" droop.. (Both rear)

[Nev]

Thanks, I understand the analysis fine and have done all the measurements, I have about 1.75" of droop on the front, which isn't enough IMO, whereas I have almost limitless compression (limited by the tyre striking the underside of the wheel arch rather than the coilover). My rear Nitrons allow massive drop for some reason, I haven't measured it, but around 6" !

 

I dunno why the front Nitrons I have don't have slightly longer struts and springs that are 1" longer TBH. I guess they expect people to "lower" their cars in which case it's less of a problem.

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[Nev]

make up some new brackets , welding practice

 

Hmm, the welding would be easy, its the bending of the metal that would be tricky, as the plate would be too tough to bend in a vice. The clearances are pretty tight too, hard to exactly copy the subtle bends on the OEM brackets.

 

 

TBH, I am coming to the conclusion that redrilling the red OEM brackets I have would be the simplest + fastest + cheapest solution to 14mm more droop. Unless anyone has a valid reason why I shouldn't...

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[Nev]

I couldn't resist, 30 mins of work in the garage and now I have these:

 

The new hole offset is a carefully measured 17mm, have kept sufficiently away from the top of the bracket (for strength and bolt head clearance reasons) and ground the paint off to improve the friction of the clamping surface to ensure the bolts don't see any sheer:

 

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 12:23 PM.

[chris_uk]

the spring is what is holding your piston open, if you compress the piston you will be adding preload to your springs, What you want is shorter springs so you avoid the preload, and that will allow the piston to further into the body.. So you have more droop, the only problem is that you a: reduce the amount of rebound, and b: lower your car. Fun and games eh. Lol

[Nev]

the spring is what is holding your piston open, if you compress the piston you will be adding preload to your springs, What you want is shorter springs so you avoid the preload, and that will allow the piston to further into the body.. So you have more droop, the only problem is that you a: reduce the amount of rebound, and b: lower your car. Fun and games eh. Lol

 

My Nitrons have adjustable spring platforms to manage this, I will just unwind the spring platform thread on the coil-over by 17mm - job done. There is plenty of thread available to do this and I estimate that the platform will then rise more or less to the centre of the thread winding.

 

Nothing wrong with pre-load on steady rate (arithmetic rate) springs IMO, so long as the spring can't reach max compression prior to the bump stop (or bodywork stop) inhibits the upward compression. In practice they are never steady state as the winding at the top and bottom where the metal is flattened (and hence thinner) usually compresses first, but I bet it barely make a difference that anyone would notice.

 

Can't wait to get this installed and do some test runs over a little hump back bridge (with a tight bend immediately after) that I know well, and then see if my suspicions about lack of droop were well founded or not. Any (hopefully!) significant mod that only costs £20 is extra rewarding

 

If I rememeber I will take some pics and measurements of the droop before and the droop after. It might be useful to others who are concerned about handling.

 

Those droop figures you mentioned earlier about the Cayman and Elise were handy and show how it could be a problem on our cars, particularily if you are a bumpy road driver, I guess for people who track their cars only it's less of an issue as they are far better surfaced.

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[smiley]

I have about 1.75" of droop on the front, which isn't enough IMO

 

My old NTR40 (2009) spec has silly droop (2.5 cm)

After getting a refurb set of NTR40 in 2015, my droop went to 8.5 cm. (2.5 cm due to longer shocks, and 3.5 cm due to different setup)

(I only measured the rear here, but i asume it's the samisch for the front)

 

So Nitron is speccing things differently versus in the old days.

 

     

[Nev]

 

I have about 1.75" of droop on the front, which isn't enough IMO

 

My old NTR40 (2009) spec has silly droop (2.5 cm)

After getting a refurb set of NTR40 in 2015, my droop went to 8.5 cm. (2.5 cm due to longer shocks, and 3.5 cm due to different setup)

(I only measured the rear here, but i asume it's the samisch for the front)

 

So Nitron is speccing things differently versus in the old days.

 

     

 

 

I think I'd agree with you about spec changes Nitron have made over the years. My Nitrons were one of the first sets ever "made" for VX220s, but even though they've been refurbed twice now, they've never changed the piston length.  

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[Exmantaa]

What spring rates are you running?

To make use of your full droop with stiffy springs, you may need helper springs. If not already fitted...

[smiley]

 

I think I'd agree with you about spec changes Nitron have made over the years. My Nitrons were one of the first sets ever "made" for VX220s, but even though they've been refurbed twice now, they've never changed the piston length.  

 

 

Was the last refurb after the whole jjj/scuffers debate, where we now get free longer eyelets for the rears?

 

[Nev]

 

 

I think I'd agree with you about spec changes Nitron have made over the years. My Nitrons were one of the first sets ever "made" for VX220s, but even though they've been refurbed twice now, they've never changed the piston length.  

 

 

Was the last refurb after the whole jjj/scuffers debate, where we now get free longer eyelets for the rears?

 

 

 

Interesting, a couple of questions:

 

1. How much longer are the eyelets.

2. Can I install them myself, or do I have to send the coilovers into them to get it done?

 

Thanks.  

[smiley]

 

Was the last refurb after the whole jjj/scuffers debate, where we now get free longer eyelets for the rears?

 

 

Interesting, a couple of questions:

 

1. How much longer are the eyelets.

2. Can I install them myself, or do I have to send the coilovers into them to get it done?

 

1. The "improved" eyelets are 2.5 cm longer. (rears only)
They were the result of basically a long discussion that back in time that Nitron build the first kit on Thorney specs, later considered to be plain wrong. Both due to the ding it could create in the rear left upper wishbone, and the poor droop.

 

(Ignore my poor attempt to take a picture of the size difference. You'll have to take my word for it.)

 

2. I am not sure.
They were part of the package deal, to be swapped for free when send in for refurb to Nitron, referring to the "JJJ" deal.
 

Here's JJJ's topic on it:

http://www.vx220.org...n-length-issues

Edited by smiley, 09 November 2016 - 05:14 PM.

[Nev]

Thanks for thank Smiley.

[Nev]

Well, I simply can't believe my eyes, I've come away from the garage in total amazement about the seemingly crazy spec of my front Nitrons.

 

Here is the story:

 

1. I installed my new red brackets with the extra 17mm offset holes to allow an extra 17mm odd of droop.

2. I then did a nut and bolt double check for safety.

3. I then did a "sanity" check for safety - and this is where it struck me:

 

The 40mm front Nitrons I have, when fully elongated only have 52 mm of exposed strut. ie the maximum that they can travel up and down is 52mm (when the bump stops start to be hit).

 

So this means, when setting your car ride hight up in the middle of this, that my piston can only travel up 26mm under compression and 26mm downward for droop. Bearing in mind the coil-over is mounted at about 70 degrees, this means the hub can travel a max of 26mm * about 1.2 (due to the angle) = around 31 mm.

 

A maximum of 62mm of vertical hub travel seems pathetic, that just 2.5 inches!!! Why on earth isn't the allowable travel specced to be more than this???

 

So this beggars an open question. Does anyone else here have a front coil-over available for measurement - if so please could you:

 

1. measure the length of the shiny strut when the coil-over is at max length

2. mention if your coil-over has a rubber bump stop.

3. mention what manufacturer and model it is please.

 

Am I missing some important aspect about this ?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 08:12 PM.

[Mopeytitan]

I'm not using mine at the minute if you want to borrow them to have a look?

[smiley]

 

1. measure the length of the shiny strut when the coil-over is at max length

 

 

I take it that is when the top ring is screwed loose, so the spring applies no pressure?

 

[Nev]

 

 

1. measure the length of the shiny strut when the coil-over is at max length

 

 

I take it that is when the top ring is screwed loose, so the spring applies no pressure?

 

 

 

Either with the spring in it (which will extend it to the max automatically), or if there is no spring in it then just pull it with your hand until it is at it's max length.

 

Then measure the length of the shiny strut that is exposed please.

 

Edited by Nev, 09 November 2016 - 09:14 PM.