4722 replies to this topic

[siztenboots]

don't quite follow what klassen is saying about the minimum fuel duty on your turbonutter injectors at idle

part of this should be the fuel pressure regulator valve and the large amount of intake vacuum when at fully closed throttle.

The vacuum hose that is connected to the lower chamber on the FPR allows the effective pressure exerted onto the diaphragm to change with different engine loads.

IIRC we have a 3 bar spring, but there is an approx 3.3 FPR on other models.

[Graeme Lambert]

Absolutely amazing result Nev - top work. Can't wait to see/hear this car in the flesh (just hoping I don't get bitten by the bug!) G

[Duncan VXR]

Nev if the injectors are flowing too well and the actuator to still for lower setting there is only 1 option TURN the BOOST UP!!!!!! Be nice to see a solid 500bhp, 450 just dont cut it You needed my 80mm intake kit lol Be also interesting on what the temps are donig with this setup nev, Really wanted to get mine on the RR next week but other commitmnts mean no more car work for the next 7 weeks or so but then ramp it back up for some track days. If you want to come along to a test day at the pod the beginning of next month you could really give a good test, happy to get some times for you - 100% 10sec 1/4 there but be very interesting how low in that number they would be. Will be a very small turn out and plenty of tech bods there on hand for advice - may even run the track beast (more for setting it up though) without changing the chip I can only really take mine to a 0.9 bar of boost max which is only going to be about 230bhp Let us know how it goes anyway and tell Jon chop chop on my turbo DG

[Nev]

don't quite follow what klassen is saying about the minimum fuel duty on your turbonutter injectors at idle

part of this should be the fuel pressure regulator valve and the large amount of intake vacuum when at fully closed throttle.

The vacuum hose that is connected to the lower chamber on the FPR allows the effective pressure exerted onto the diaphragm to change with different engine loads.

IIRC we have a 3 bar spring, but there is an approx 3.3 FPR on other models.

A good question Steve. When I did my original ball-park calcs for injector capacity, I was working on the assumption that my Sytec fuel pump was going to be a weak point. I thought it might struggle to provide enough fuel, so that lead me to think that it would be best to keep the fuel rail pressure low (say 3.0 bar so there was less resistance for the pump to overcome) and thus that would require larger injectors to compensate.

However, at the last moment (ie 2 days ago!) I installed the Bosch 044 pump and swirl pot which is now far safer in terms of delivering fuel. However, this now means that it's possible to put the smaller injectors in and raise the fuel rail pressure (I think Jon said he'd try a 4.0 bar regulator). This has the added benefit of allowing more precises delivery of fuel (due to finer control of the smaller injector holes), particularily at idle to help it get through future MOTs. It will also help control cylinder temps better, by allowing a better ability to cool them a bit with extra fuel rather than overloading them and causing bore wash.

No news from CS/Jon yet this morning, hopefully they have found time to carry on the work. I am sitting at my PC at work barely able to concentrate on work due to the anticipation!

Thanks for all the kind comments guys, it is great new indeed, though clearly those ball-park figures are just a vague indication of power so far. My crank is going to be the limiting factor for power really, and the oil pump is the limiting factor for max revs as the oil will likely start to cavitate after approx 8000 to 8500 revs. Supposedly the crank should be able to take 500 BHP, but I don't think Im willing to take the risk of going into the 500s. Extrapolating from the boost/power ratio I think the engine would achieve 600+ BHP if the boost was turned up to 2.5 bar, but that would be a foolish thing to do IMO as the likelihood of somthing breaking is far far greater. For a start Alex thinks my CC will only cope with 2.0 bar of boost.

Edited by Nev, 17 June 2011 - 09:52 AM.

[Nev]

I've just had a nice chat with Jon. He's got the weaker wastegate spring and just had the hassle of putting it in . The car is going back on the rollers in the next hour or two for a few more pulls so that they can send the results off to Stephan for him to tweak the map. I wouldn't be surprised if the map goes back and forth by email 20 times over the coming week. According to Jon, the crank is good for almost any sort of power, apparently Klassen is still on his original crank in his engine - and that has seen hundreds of dyno pulls and drag strip pulls. I also know someone else who made 500 BHP at 8000 revs with the crank safely. This is good news really and makes me think maybe I should be a bit bolder with the map. In practice though, the key issue is more about keeping the torque curve as flat as possible (ideally dead pan plat) and then letting the power grow arithmetically with the revs. This will make the power delivery as predictable as possible and help keep the wheels from spinning which is the enemy in the 'real world'.

Edited by Nev, 17 June 2011 - 03:42 PM.

[Nev]

Jon has just kindly rung me and we had another good chat. Apparently 'Big Mark' has just had a baby so Jon was in the dyno cell at 6.30 doing the work to keep up (thanks Jon) Anyway, he put the boost controller back on and gave it 2 more pulls. This time it made a probable 511 BHP at around 7200 revs. I say probable, as he said that he paniced because the sensors shot up so fast that he though something had gone wrong and pressed the clutch in, and then droped it again. Apparently the clutch press was violent enough to pop the bleed screw off the alu T-piece (which I rememer I didn't nip up particularily hard) and it dropped it's fluid ! Anyway this is more good news, boost was around 22 PSI, so with a further full bar of boost available (via the ECU telling the wastegate to delay opening via the Amal valve), this means there is a lot more power to come... *gulp* He is sending the dyno and sensors readings by email back to Stephan tonight, hoping to get some more pulls on the dyno tomorrow. Thought he power figures aren't yet mental, he said that what really made him 'panic' was the speed at which the engine wanted to rev, apparently hes never been had such a rev happy engine that climbed up the revs so fast. All good news for little Nipper.

Edited by Nev, 17 June 2011 - 06:25 PM.

[ChrisS1]

Christ on a bike thats some serious power!!!!! It's going to be a challenger to Ronins Exige (I assume ypu have heard of this?) Well done Nev you must be chuffed!!!! (and relieved)

[VXT Tim]

More good news Nev

[MrSimba]

Christ on a bike thats some serious power!!!!!

It's going to be a challenger to Ronins Exige (I assume ypu have heard of this?)

Well done Nev you must be chuffed!!!! (and relieved)

Thats just been tuned to about 580bhp IIRC so come on Nev turn the B O O S T up!

Gotta feeling Nippers going to be awesome when CMS / Klassen have finished with it!

[Nev]

Well I couldn't really sleep last night (for dreaming of screaming dynos !), so I've got up early and written a fair bit onto my website. It feels rather strange to wake up on a Sat morning and not having to go out to the garage to do some work on the car. I find myself wandering around aimlessly wondering what to do with my time. It's all going to be a bit of anti-climax once the pject dies down, though I hope to make a splitter for the front end and maybe install an extra oil cooler and guages for the dashboard.


ChrisS1: TBH I hadn't heard of Ronin's Exige, so looked it up on google and watched a couple of his driving videos. What an awesome car, cant understand how he has sqeezed so much power from a tiny upsercharged engine. Very impressive.

Duncan: It seems 500+ BHP is already available. Im not sure about the heat situation, Jon did say it was ok, but as we all know a 15 second pull isn't the same as hard abuse for 20+ mins.

Graeme Lambert: Yup, sure I wil post some videos of the car idleing and driving once it's mapped and I have the balls to drive it hard.

Peter VXR37: Thx and may I will be needing those extra large turbo ears for cooling. Will be addressing the aero + heat issues as the next phase of the project.

P11 COV: Sorry, didnt mean to jump the queue ;o)

Rob999: I gave Allyson her reward for helping me last night in bed

Anarchy: Well hopefully it won't be pull any wheelies, but it might go a bit light at the front end without a bag of cement in the psx footwell

Joe and Judderman: No graphs yet, as the base map hasn't even been completed yet (even the boost demand talbe hasn't been completed), let alone any of the other fuel + timing advance tables being setup fully. Obviously Im keen to see one, but Jon and Stphans have a lot more work to do yet before we settle on a particular setup.

Siztenboots: You were right, Norwich traffic was nasty and made the engine warm up to 94 degrees C. A good test for the coolant system, which thankfully didnt burst anywhere.

Everyone Else: Thanks for your support and kind words.

Edited by Nev, 18 June 2011 - 07:49 AM.

[VXT Tim]

Do you have a date set to pick it up or is it done when it's done?

[MrSimba]

Nev this is the board Frank (Ronin) posts on if your bored and you've not seen it before well worth a look

http://www.lotusspor...b06661111863a4f

Can't wait to hear your final result and your drive home review!!!

[Nev]

Hi Tim, Unfortunately I only had time booked on the dyno for Thurs and Fri, so now they will have to fit my car in when there are gaps in their schedule. I expect it may well be a week or so till it's ready. Perhaps I will get to pick it up next Saturday. Thanks for the Link MrSimba, I will have a good read of the site, is there somewhere that summarises his mods and/or a full engine spec ? Nev.

[Arno]

is there somewhere that summarises his mods and/or a full engine spec ?

He blows up too much stuff and keeps on fiddling with it (read: breaking it ) so it's always in a state of flux

At the moment he's running a 2ZZ engine with:

- E153 5 speed gearbox from an SW20 MR2 (original 6-speed C64 toyota gearbox can't handle the power and fails)
- Compound charger setup where a turbo blows 'through' an SC with a fat chargecooler
- Big oil cooler setup

And a lot of modywork mods, etc.

Power-wise AFAIK he's now in the mid 500's which is down from his original turbo-only setup, but becuase of the S/C in the mix now it does (according to his reports) basically pull like a steamtrain from pretty much idle all the way to the redline and there's no 'off boost' point anymore anywhere.

Ah.. Redline.. He actually had the block (aftyer a few blew up) built to handle 10K rpm, but with the amount of torque and power he's making now he really hasn't really been using it much over 8000

Bye, Arno.

[P11 COV]

Hi Tim,


Unfortunately I only had time booked on the dyno for Thurs and Fri, so now they will have to fit my car in when there are gaps in their schedule. I expect it may well be a week or so till it's ready. Perhaps I will get to pick it up next Saturday.

Thanks for the Link MrSimba, I will have a good read of the site, is there somewhere that summarises his mods and/or a full engine spec ?

Nev.

!'m going to pick mine up from courtenays on Monday - I might take yours for a spin whilst I'm there

[Nev]

!'m going to pick mine up from courtenays on Monday - I might take yours for a spin whilst I'm there

Okies P11COV, though I think you will have to wrestle the keys out of Jon as I expect he's keen to test drive it once it's trimmed correctly. Be wary of wheelies

To be honest I have spent most of this weekend milling around aimlessly. Its such a strange feeling to wake up and have nothing to do, almost like being dumped by a girlfriend, that sort of vacuous/vacant feeling like you have lost something precious and been whacked over the head with a mallet. All I can think about is picking the car up and gingerly driving down the road to see how it feels, I really hope Jon and Stephan can find time to complete the mapping this week as you can imagine I am full to bursting with desire to see what it's like.

At least it's Fathers day today, my parents are coming round for a BBQ - that should keep my mind off little Nipper. My dad used to be an 'automobile engineer' as it was called in the 50s. He is amazed how I have got 500+ BHP out of a 2 litre block. In his day a well tuned 2 litre block would have made 125 BHP at best !

Yesterday I was so bored, I went round the garage again and totally cleaned it out. It now looks cleaner and more organised than most women's bedrooms

Edited by Nev, 19 June 2011 - 07:26 AM.

[VXT Tim]

You'll have to start building engines for people Nev, you're going to need a new project.

[Nev]

Hmm, funny you should mention it. I have most of Nippers original engine still on the shelves in my garage, it's still in excelent condition and would easily make a 400 BHP unit in a matter of a few weeks. The bores are barely worn at all and the crank is rock solid. I nearly cried when I took it apart and saw what good condition it was in. I was genuinely surprised as I regularily drove it to 6500 revs and I know the previous owner did too. It just shows how low-tuned they are (even as stage 4s) and how much abuse they can take. I think it would need a hone (no rebore required IMO), a set of Z20LEH pistons, a set of Australian rods, a set of new inlet valves, valve grind, deck and head skim, new gasket set and a X20XEV ladder on the bottom of the block, new oil pump, new water pump, new stem seals might be a good idea though the old ones were 100%. Once I had bought that lot it would only take a weekend to build it up. Buy a Courtenay GT28 kit and downpipe and it would be a straight swap for anyone's std Z20LET engine. All you'd need it to do is run it in for 500 miles, a bigger set of injectors, an 80mm MAF and a remap. Lickety split, you'd be driving round with 400 BHP in 3 months time.

Edited by Nev, 19 June 2011 - 07:57 AM.

[siztenboots]

Yesterday I was so bored, I went round the garage again and totally cleaned it out. It now looks cleaner and more organised than most women's bedrooms

this is why you need a couple of spare engines and gearboxes to muck about with, strip down, teach yourself bits.

I think the interesting part is the tubular manifold to see how much that has contributed to performance and your ideas on packaging the turbo and its ancillaries, plus all the silly bespoke bits like supporting brackets hoses etc.

My own progress has slowed, but thats because I'm moving away from motronic 1.5.5 and doing my own thing with trionic7 and trying to reuse as much GM parts bin stuff from various cars and engines. The benefit of this will be a lot of plug and play pay back for 2.0L Zlet and B204 , 2.2L Z22SE, Z20NET and 2.3L B234/5 engine conversions with turbo and SC all covered.

[Nev]

this is why you need a couple of spare engines and gearboxes to muck about with, strip down, teach yourself bits.

I think the interesting part is the tubular manifold to see how much that has contributed to performance and your ideas on packaging the turbo and its ancillaries, plus all the silly bespoke bits like supporting brackets hoses etc.

My own progress has slowed, but thats because I'm moving away from motronic 1.5.5 and doing my own thing with trionic7 and trying to reuse as much GM parts bin stuff from various cars and engines. The benefit of this will be a lot of plug and play pay back for 2.0L Zlet and B204 , 2.2L Z22SE, Z20NET and 2.3L B234/5 engine conversions with turbo and SC all covered.

I don't think there is much I don't know about the Z20LET now but I have no idea about the Saab sharable parts. Any solid info you can give the community about interchangable parts would be really useful to others I am sure. I think Vespa was thinking of building a Saab engine up for his car. I am sure that using cheaper and more robust Saab parts (end ECU) for a hybrid Vaux/Saab engine would be appealing. Its just that someone (ie you!) has to go through the pain of the learning curve

I think my tubular manifold has contributed a lot to the dynamics of the flow. Not just becuase it is tubular and scavenges correctly, but because the primaries are narrow (just 34mm I/D), the merge collector is neat and points at the flange correctly and the gases flow round relatively wide circumferance bends. I noticed (with glee) that while running the engine in, that the turbo starts to spool at just 2000 revs, once its fully mapped it might even start spooling below this. This was a design that I wanted, the speedy spool is a compromise and is more important than out and out power gained by having wide primaries. I remeber doing all the maths based on David Vizzards book, though I've forgotten it all now.People who drone on about big turbos causing lag are just a bit under-educated I think, if you design your engine + exhaust setup correctly there really shouldn't be much (if any) lag penalty in fitting a mid sized turbo like I have.

Edited by Nev, 19 June 2011 - 09:04 AM.