153 replies to this topic

[slindborg]

whats worse though, Added volume (small lag after a tip out), or higher pressure loss due to a laminova core.

[Exmantaa]

Is something on my improvement list....

[Winstar]

I'm a mechanical engineer. Masters degree no less.

I'll see your MEng and raise you a CEng + more years doing thermal and fluid analysis that is good for you. LOL

But yes in a car you will NEVER get enough clean air anywhere but the front, roof scoops are always a compromise and end up with dirty air off the winscreen unless you spend hours in CFD and wind tunnells al a F1

A snorkal Chris Randalls Europa is around the 400bhp mark for the GT championship. Not chargecooled though I think?

Chris uses the proalloy front rad and a custom designed CC, snorkel is for enigne bay cooling

whats worse though, Added volume (small lag after a tip out), or higher pressure loss due to a laminova core.

depends on what power your after the Laminovas are fine for the 200bhp they where speced for but as you up the flow rate they become a bottle neck.

Edited by Winstar, 22 June 2010 - 10:34 AM.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

Am I wrong in thinking that the supercharged application for the VX we have no choice but to run the chargecooler as the inlet manifold is water cooled? I agree that the intercooler is a better option for the turbo in 99% of cases but getting the cooled air from the intercooler to inlet is the biggest problem in the VX application.

[Winstar]

Am I wrong in thinking that the supercharged application for the VX we have no choice but to run the chargecooler as the inlet manifold is water cooled?

The courtenay stg1 runs with no laminova cores and reduced boots, but this is far from good solution as there is about the same pressure loss across the empty cores as with them!

The whole SC package isn't great as it was designed for a FWD car that has PAS and AC to drive off the belt, really it would be better to mount the SC low and come up through a CC

[turbobob]

Red Bull Exige

Am I right in thikning this car started with a chargecooler, but had to change to an intercooler?

[techieboy]

I thought the supercharged Exiges come/came with an intercooler as standard but usually they usually get swapped out for a charge cooler when people start playing with them (on road cars at least).

[turbobob]

I drove the MMG stage 5 to Le Mans this year in 27c heat and in trafic around the curcuit, I never saw my inlet temp go above 40c. Traveling in my group was a friend running the MMG stage 4 also with the High performance MMG intercooler. The same car had just completed the 6 hour Mallory indurance event and had no issues. For me the on road performance and results speak for themselves.

Surely CS or Pro Alloy must have done some testing before going with the CC?

Personally I can't see an intercooler cooling enough/as well on a 300bhp mid engine car with poor air flow...

As can be seen from the post by martinimike, it does work. The MMG stage 5 is running 330-340 bhp

[turbobob]

I thought the supercharged Exiges come/came with an intercooler as standard but usually they usually get swapped out for a charge cooler when people start playing with them (on road cars at least).

Ok, let me re-phrase my question. Didn't the Red Bull car try a chargecooler, but it couldn't cope so they had to fit the intercooler as seen in the picture?

[Winstar]

Interesting that the MMG appears to have a solution that works however I am strugeling to belive that you can get the required air flow to reject enough heat. I think some of the solution is also in the other changes reducing the pressure losses. The only thing a will add about IC's is you need to think about where the heat is going. stright into the engine bay where you don't want it rather than over the car with a CC. I always belived Thorney's Heat related race issues was due to keeping the IC. As for the Red bull exige then it all depends what they did, to get a CC to work properly for very high power as you need to improve the airflow thorough the front end. Anyway the proof of which is the best solution is that Randy is running +430bhp in GT races with no issues now. Turbobob form the t'other thread an IC will heatsoak much quicker than a CC due to the massive thermal (specific heat) capacity of water. weather it will heat soak is dependent on it getting enough airflow to reject the heat put into it.

[Exmantaa]

The courtenay stg1 runs with no laminova cores and reduced boots, but this is far from good solution as there is about the same pressure loss across the empty cores as with them!

The whole SC package isn't great as it was designed for a FWD car that has PAS and AC to drive off the belt, really it would be better to mount the SC low and come up through a CC

Some similar thinking here...
Something I sketched some time ago as my ideal SC set-up =>
http://www.cobaltss....anifold&page=16

Edited by Exmantaa, 22 June 2010 - 02:05 PM.

[Crabash]

Although not really relavent to us, the other thing with all air cooled rads is the air speed, hence why ducts to rads on race cars "expand" near the rad helping "drive" the duct like a diffuser and and slowing the air down, then reduce again after to bring the air speed back to normal and exit in a low pressure area.

Edited by Crabash, 22 June 2010 - 08:29 PM.

[JohnTurbo]

Ceng. Pah! (Gimmie a couple of years...Haha)

[soupdragon]

2.2 dbilas turbo

Saw this recently on youtube

IC mounted in front of the right rear wheel
Oil cooler in left air vent

Lots of interesting pics in second half of vid

[Whiteboy]

The guys in Europe have used a big intercooler which looks about the same size and they all say in the real world its good for a road 280 bhb, it will do higher numbers but will not sustain this power for long as it quickly becomes heat soaked. I can remember back when this was all being talked about when the turbo first came out and it was Lotus who were backing up the Charge Cooler route, due to the limited amount of air that the side pod could flow, if you remember back the old Sprint Turbo had larger side pods however to make these function properly the boot lid also had to be reworked to let the air back out to stop the air stalling through the engine bay due to the paracute effect. The good power european cars also modded the sill to get more air in to this larger intercooler. Steve

[Whiteboy]

Surely CS or Pro Alloy must have done some testing before going with the CC?

Personally I can't see an intercooler cooling enough/as well on a 300bhp mid engine car with poor air flow...

Alex at pro alloy developed the charge cooler for his track car. The man is a absolute nutter, he would have developed the best solution for his own car.

The other person who runs a pro alloy charge cooler is Randy Hoffman, he again would only go for the best solution, the pre rad is exactly the same unit as the vx one. The heat exchanger is currently a smaller 4 core unit due to space however its going back to Pro Alloy to have a some things moved to create space for a 5 core unit like the ones fitted to the VX Charge Coolers.

As pro alloy make intercoolers / charge coolers / rads etc, he would have gone for the best option.

Steve

Edited by Whiteboy, 23 June 2010 - 09:54 AM.

[techieboy]

due to the limited amount of air that the side pod could flow, if you remember back the old Sprint Turbo had larger side pods however to make these function properly the boot lid also had to be reworked to let the air back out to stop the air stalling through the engine bay due to the paracute effect. The good power european cars also modded the sill to get more air in to this larger intercooler.

Spooky, I had this very same conversation with Jon at Courtenay's yesterday. Where you on a conference call with us?

Apparently, the Sprint car ears were larger still originally but had to be made smaller to avoid the risk of kneecapping anyone it drove past. The turbo ears were meant to be closer to the final Sprint car but then the Vauxhall styling people decided to make them smaller.

[Whiteboy]

due to the limited amount of air that the side pod could flow, if you remember back the old Sprint Turbo had larger side pods however to make these function properly the boot lid also had to be reworked to let the air back out to stop the air stalling through the engine bay due to the paracute effect. The good power european cars also modded the sill to get more air in to this larger intercooler.

Spooky, I had this very same conversation with Jon at Courtenay's yesterday. Where you on a conference call with us?

Apparently, the Sprint car ears were larger still originally but had to be made smaller to avoid the risk of kneecapping anyone it drove past. The turbo ears were meant to be closer to the final Sprint car but then the Vauxhall styling people decided to make them smaller.

I have a bug in Jon's office, so I get to find out whats going on. I was very surprised by what you offered to do to him, just to get some discount.

Steve

[slindborg]

due to the limited amount of air that the side pod could flow, if you remember back the old Sprint Turbo had larger side pods however to make these function properly the boot lid also had to be reworked to let the air back out to stop the air stalling through the engine bay due to the paracute effect. The good power european cars also modded the sill to get more air in to this larger intercooler.

Spooky, I had this very same conversation with Jon at Courtenay's yesterday. Where you on a conference call with us?

Apparently, the Sprint car ears were larger still originally but had to be made smaller to avoid the risk of kneecapping anyone it drove past. The turbo ears were meant to be closer to the final Sprint car but then the Vauxhall styling people decided to make them smaller.

I have a bug in Jon's office, so I get to find out whats going on. I was very surprised by what you offered to do to him, just to get some discount.

Steve

Was it Matt promising not to come back after this "last" time

[techieboy]

I couldn't possibly comment, for fear of incriminating myself.