153 replies to this topic

[jaylin]

The guys in Europe have used a big intercooler which looks about the same size and they all say in the real world its good for a road 280 bhb

Steve

Cheers for all the development info Steve.
I'm sure a big intercooler will work to a certain point, but common sence tells me the theroy of removing heat from the engine bay has got to be a big plus.
As Winstar mentioned Thorneys heat problems were probably contributed by leaving the standard intercooler in, causing high engine bay temps which then led to (distant memory) crank sensor melting!
Improved air flow ducting from undertray would probably help...?
And totaly loosing boot, with a lambo style mesh rear end.

[turbobob]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all the heat on a charge cooler being dumped in the same place as the main engine cooling radiator?

[jaylin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all the heat on a charge cooler being dumped in the same place as the main engine cooling radiator?

Correct.

But there is not a major heat issue this end of car, as air flow is always gonna be better.

[Winstar]

(distant memory) crank sensor melting!
Improved air flow ducting from undertray would probably help...?
And totaly loosing boot, with a lambo style mesh rear end.

And gear cables IIRC

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all the heat on a charge cooler being dumped in the same place as the main engine cooling radiator?

yeh out the top of the bonnet and round by the wing mirrors (put your hand there while crusing and you can feel the heat) where there are no components sensitive to heat. Unlike the enine bay where there are numerous electronics and ancillarys that don't react well as they where designed for a front engined car that would have plenty of cool air flowing through it. If you mean won't it affect the engine cooling system then the only car I know of to have problems is Hofmann's europa which where easily solved.

I'm not saying that the IC doesn't work there's proof it does it's just never going to be as good of a solution as a CC for a mid-engined car.

[turbobob]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all the heat on a charge cooler being dumped in the same place as the main engine cooling radiator?

yeh out the top of the bonnet and round by the wing mirrors (put your hand there while crusing and you can feel the heat) where there are no components sensitive to heat. Unlike the enine bay where there are numerous electronics and ancillarys that don't react well as they where designed for a front engined car that would have plenty of cool air flowing through it. If you mean won't it affect the engine cooling system then the only car I know of to have problems is Hofmann's europa which where easily solved.

I'm not saying that the IC doesn't work there's proof it does it's just never going to be as good of a solution as a CC for a mid-engined car.

But the chargecooler itself almost completely blocks the vent. The IC still allows airflow. The worse of the two scenarios are to block the vent, which will surely make the problem you mention even worse.

[garyk220]

Would defintirely be worthwhile asking for data-logged intake temps during track use. I bought the original Courtenay chargecooler believing the marketing blurb that intake temps would be reduced to well below 40 degrees and expecting it to be a massive imrpovement over the stock intercooler (I've seen peak intake temps in the mid 80's with a Stage 2 map with the standard IC). On track the CC offered an improvement in intake temps, but only a very small one... reduced from 75 degrees peak to 65 at the same circuit. Was the CC value for money for fast road use? Possibly, but temps rarely went above 45 degrees anyway so not really a big issue. Was it value for money for track use? Not a chance. Courtenay presented the information as they tested it. But until you see hard evidence of the performance when used in the same way as you plan to use the car, I'd recommend a degree of caution. To be fair to them, they had not used the car on track so couldn't comment on how it would perform. The Pro Alloy system is said to be much more efficient, but perhaps I'm just more cynical now, I'd want to see hard evidence of the results before parting with any more money. I've removed my CC until I can make some improvements to it and back running with the standard IC. Based on my experience of logging temps with the IC, this new one would have to be a huge step forward in design to achive near Pro Alloy CC-like temperature reductions over sustained period on track.

Edited by garyk220, 24 June 2010 - 12:27 PM.

[siztenboots]

Using the scanguage you can read 'cIA as the ecu sees it , I have the PA CC and get close to ambient temps for fast road use , for track use its only a little bit more

[Winstar]

But the chargecooler itself almost completely blocks the vent. The IC still allows airflow. The worse of the two scenarios are to block the vent, which will surely make the problem you mention even worse.

Having owned a car fitted with the Proalloy CC it is set back from the vent and there is plenty of room for air flow round it, infact as an open area probably similar to having an IC in there just with out the heat rejection.

Edit: and even if it did block the vent the lower pressure in the engine bay should draw more cool air through the remaining openings.

Edited by Winstar, 24 June 2010 - 12:41 PM.

[Winstar]

I've removed my CC until I can make some improvements to it and back running with the standard IC. Based on my experience of logging temps with the IC, this new one would have to be a huge step forward in design to achive near Pro Alloy CC-like temperature reductions over sustained period on track.

Gary do you know what the coolant temps in the CC where in relation to the inlet temps? As IIRC the front rad is the main problem with the old style setups.

[techieboy]

I've got a datalogger interface for my PerformanceBox, that has four spare channels on. If I can find some decently priced (and compatible) analogue sensors I might do some logging on the various temps. Clearly this is on an SC'd car and would have little relevance for the lard arses amongst us but, if it's reasonably straightforward to transfer across to it's pig iron cousin, somebody is welcome to have a play with it on a trackday.

[turbobob]

But the chargecooler itself almost completely blocks the vent. The IC still allows airflow. The worse of the two scenarios are to block the vent, which will surely make the problem you mention even worse.

Having owned a car fitted with the Proalloy CC it is set back from the vent and there is plenty of room for air flow round it, infact as an open area probably similar to having an IC in there just with out the heat rejection.

Edit: and even if it did block the vent the lower pressure in the engine bay should draw more cool air through the remaining openings.

On the contrary, surely by the venturi principle, the increased airflow will draw more air in from other openings?

And here is a picture I have come across for the fitment of a chargecooler :



Not the greatest of airlfows around this.

[slindborg]

I've got a datalogger interface for my PerformanceBox, that has four spare channels on. If I can find some decently priced (and compatible) analogue sensors I might do some logging on the various temps. Clearly this is on an SC'd car and would have little relevance for the lard arses amongst us but, if it's reasonably straightforward to transfer across to it's pig iron cousin, somebody is welcome to have a play with it on a trackday.

its as if I wrote it

[Winstar]

On the contrary, surely by the venturi principle, the increased airflow will draw more air in from other openings? NO* the air flow into the engine bay is driven, as all air flow, by pressure difference. The venturi effect is only applicable when one faster flowing fluid stream intersects with a slower moving one, where the fast moving fluid is at a lower pressure that the slow one so effectivly drags it along.

And here is a picture I have come across for the fitment of a chargecooler :

snip

Not the greatest of airlfows around this.

Yes it looks a big lump but there is quite a large flow area around it, easily comparable to the open area if you filled the ear with a large IC.

[Tommess]

Using the scanguage you can read 'cIA as the ecu sees it , I have the PA CC and get close to ambient temps for fast road use , for track use its only a little bit more

So does that mean intake air temperatures will stay well below 50°C (with max. ambient temps. around 30°C) with a stage 4 (300bhp) on the track?

That's all I need to know!

[turbobob]

I drove the MMG stage 5 to Le Mans this year in 27c heat and in trafic around the curcuit, I never saw my inlet temp go above 40c. Traveling in my group was a friend running the MMG stage 4 also with the High performance MMG intercooler. The same car had just completed the 6 hour Mallory indurance event and had no issues. For me the on road performance and results speak for themselves.

Using the scanguage you can read 'cIA as the ecu sees it , I have the PA CC and get close to ambient temps for fast road use , for track use its only a little bit more

So does that mean intake air temperatures will stay well below 50°C (with max. ambient temps. around 30°C) with a stage 4 (300bhp) on the track?

That's all I need to know!

Not sure if the above post answers your question

[turbobob]

On the contrary, surely by the venturi principle, the increased airflow will draw more air in from other openings? NO* the air flow into the engine bay is driven, as all air flow, by pressure difference. The venturi effect is only applicable when one faster flowing fluid stream intersects with a slower moving one, where the fast moving fluid is at a lower pressure that the slow one so effectivly drags it along.

And here is a picture I have come across for the fitment of a chargecooler :

snip

Not the greatest of airlfows around this.

Yes it looks a big lump but there is quite a large flow area around it, easily comparable to the open area if you filled the ear with a large IC.

Doesn't look a lot of area around it to me. And the air not only flows around the IC, but also through it.

[Winstar]

Doesn't look a lot of area around it to me. And the air not only flows around the IC, but also through it.

Have you actually seen one in person or are you just go on Photo?

Your missing my point on the IC for it to work it's will pretty much fill the ear so the majority of the flow you'll get is through it.

[turbobob]

Doesn't look a lot of area around it to me. And the air not only flows around the IC, but also through it.

Have you actually seen one in person or are you just go on Photo?

Your missing my point on the IC for it to work it's will pretty much fill the ear so the majority of the flow you'll get is through it.

I haven't seen on in person no.

And I do get your point. I guess the point I am making is some airflow (i.e. through and around the IC) is better than no airflow i.e. considerably blocked vent with the CC.

[Winstar]

And I do get your point. I guess the point I am making is some airflow (i.e. through and around the IC) is better than no airflow i.e. considerably blocked vent with the CC.

given the choice between blocked and hot air, then blocked as said above the engine bay has been tested to be at negative pressure. Blocking off one inlet will reduce the pressure further and increase cold air flow from the other inlets.

Edit but as I said there is more room than it looks in that photo

Edited by Winstar, 24 June 2010 - 03:42 PM.

[siztenboots]

And I do get your point. I guess the point I am making is some airflow (i.e. through and around the IC) is better than no airflow i.e. considerably blocked vent with the CC.

given the choice between blocked and hot air, then blocked as said above the engine bay has been tested to be at negative pressure. Blocking off one inlet will reduce the pressure further and increase cold air flow from the other inlets.

so it would be better to box in proper OSR side pod and add just a bit of ducting direct to where needed