153 replies to this topic

[Mani]

Such an entertaining thread Turbob. keep up the good work- everyone should know by now that intercoolers are better. Not long before the chargecooler pose will lose the battle in arguments..hang in there mate! ;p

[chrisgold]

Hi there,

Last week during the French meeting, we made some measurements of IAT with differents uprated IC, during the trackday.

We find that temperatures would vary between 74°C and 94°C at the end of the straight line (around 5500RPM in 4th gear), depending on the setting (with or without larger ears, with or without airflow guides), the IC type (VX Performance or other source) and the map (stage 2.5 to 3 on the European scale, so circa 250BHP to 275BHP). These values were recorded after at least 10 laps done within the last hour, so engines were pretty hot.

Just as a comparison, one VX220 with OEM IC and standard map (200BHP) was recorded at 66°C.

We found also that spark advance would begin to decrease after 50°C, eventually becoming a delay at around 85°C.

As nobody in France as a charge cooler, we would like to know if someone from this side of the Channel and with this type of intake air cooling device (ProAlloy or Thorney) has already recorded his IAT on track?

Thanks for your help, wish we can help the community to progress on that topic with those new data.

What did they upgrade it with???? That can not be an upgraded, because the standard fairs better than that! Was the uprated IC one made from polyurethane?? 94c???? Thats got to be bull sh**. The z20let cuts power altogether for a few seconds at about 85c, I have experienced this with a standard intercooler!

It has been tried and tested and it works.

Just not for very long.

Errr, well I think I have tested it for a very long time, I do close to 200 miles every track day I go too, the MMG intercooler has been with me for all of them! I thrash the car as much or more then anyone! Car go's out for 60min at a time on most track days (with both drivers) and I never get any heat soak, Im also pushing my z20let turbo to its absolute limits!

Tell you what, next track day (on the 7th of next month, its going to be a hot summers day!) I will be stage 4+ running around 300+ bhp and 350ish lbft , I will stick my video camera on my scan gauge at my intake temp and I will take the car out for an hour 60min without coming in to pit.

Then that can shut you all up about intercoolers dont work. I will put £100 on the fact we never see over 50c and I expect we see around 40c.

[The Batman]

300+ and 350+ hmmmmm the mmg Motorsport.... Or development or performance whatever they are called... I drove a Cms stage 3 tubby vxt ed and a mmg tubby the mmg stage 3 stevea with jjj driving and the Cms was by far a hell of a lot quicker than the mmg car... The difference was chalk and cheese

Edited by joe_589, 21 July 2011 - 10:51 PM.

[rob999]

Joe we're talking stage 4+++++++++++ here.

[chrisgold]

300+ and 350+ hmmmmm the mmg Motorsport.... Or development or performance whatever they are called...

I drove a Cms stage 3 tubby vxt ed and a mmg tubby the mmg stage 3 stevea with jjj driving and the Cms was by far a hell of a lot quicker than the mmg car...

The difference was chalk and cheese

300/350 are estimates as its not finished yet, thats why I said "ish" I may get 290bhp and 310lbft, I may get a lot more..... who knows? every engine is different.


And Sorry, can you say that in English please?

Who drove what and where? You were driving 2 cars at once? jjj was driving?? stevea was driving? ed was driving?? who was what and where???

Well at the National the MMG cars were some of the quickest.

Sure bring a cms stage 3 to the track we will see if its quicker than mine at stage 4, bet its not, bet its no quicker than mine with an MMG stage 2 map.

And to be clear, your trying to say we are running lower temps because we run less power than cms?

Edited by chrisgold, 21 July 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[The Batman]

was on my iphone, i was saying i drove a cms stage 3 (vxt'ed car) and was passenger in mmg stage 3 (stevea's car) and the difference was chalk and cheese power wise not intakes i have no idea on intake temps in fact it doesnt really matter as vxt'ed doesnt have a charge cooler he uses standard intercooler and is way faster than steveA's mmg stage 3 with an intercooler so that actually makes vxt'ed a stage 2 which is faster than a stage 3 mmg! but i forgot the mmg man can sell sand to the saudi arabians and you are the reason they created the phrase salesmans wet dream

Edited by joe_589, 22 July 2011 - 12:17 AM.

[cs_]

Hi there,

Last week during the French meeting, we made some measurements of IAT with differents uprated IC, during the trackday.

We find that temperatures would vary between 74°C and 94°C at the end of the straight line (around 5500RPM in 4th gear), depending on the setting (with or without larger ears, with or without airflow guides), the IC type (VX Performance or other source) and the map (stage 2.5 to 3 on the European scale, so circa 250BHP to 275BHP). These values were recorded after at least 10 laps done within the last hour, so engines were pretty hot.

Just as a comparison, one VX220 with OEM IC and standard map (200BHP) was recorded at 66°C.

We found also that spark advance would begin to decrease after 50°C, eventually becoming a delay at around 85°C.

As nobody in France as a charge cooler, we would like to know if someone from this side of the Channel and with this type of intake air cooling device (ProAlloy or Thorney) has already recorded his IAT on track?

Thanks for your help, wish we can help the community to progress on that topic with those new data.

What did they upgrade it with???? That can not be an upgraded, because the standard fairs better than that! Was the uprated IC one made from polyurethane?? 94c???? Thats got to be bull sh**. The z20let cuts power altogether for a few seconds at about 85c, I have experienced this with a standard intercooler!

I have marked the important point for you. You cannot compare 200BHP with a stage x in terms of IAT. the stock turbo charger with stock mapping puts much less air into compression which results in much colder IAT. 94 deg C is a common IAT for heavy tuned armoury with 300BHP, even with big intercooler like the VX Perfomance one. I drove this setup for myself.

with standard chassis layout saying an intercooler could only do almost equal as good as the PA cc is ridiculous. sorry. if you rip off the rear clamshell and put an 2 sq ft ic on top you may be right, but nowhere near with the clamshell mounted and the only cold air coming to the right ear. physically impossible.

[spuk87]

was on my iphone, i was saying i drove a cms stage 3 (vxt'ed car) and was passenger in mmg stage 3 (stevea's car) and the difference was chalk and cheese power wise not intakes i have no idea on intake temps

in fact it doesnt really matter as vxt'ed doesnt have a charge cooler he uses standard intercooler and is way faster than steveA's mmg stage 3 with an intercooler so that actually makes vxt'ed a stage 2 which is faster than a stage 3 mmg!

How can you be so sure it was chalk and cheese if you drove one but passengered another? I had a pax in a std tubby once which felt surprisingly quick just because I was a passenger (in this case it would actually help your claim though).

I've said it before but I really would be surprised if a stage 2 MMG was any slower than a stage 2 cms, let alone stage 3. Can't really say why as it's not my prerogative to but I am quite confident in MMG's maps.

Re: chrisgold - I would be genuinely interested to see a video of your intake temps on a track day just to see what sort of figures you get

[VXT Tim]

Have we had a MMG tuned car on a rolling road yet? Genuine question before anybody gets super defensive.

[The Batman]

How dare you vxt Tim solicitors letter in the post I would also like to see one on the rolling road same time and road as a Cms one and a tms one just for giggles.

[techieboy]

Not really a fair comparison though. Each of them makes slightly different claims as to what any given "stage" produces (and gives weight to Slindborgs argument that stage tuning is bollox) and/or it's in a range. However, it would be good to see an MMG car on a physical dyno and to see how externally measured numbers stack up against what the "ecu" dyno produces.

[Seb.F]

Look, in short, intercoolers work and are perfectly viable, up to a point, then chargecoolers are better, alright?

[VXT Tim]

Irrespective of stage be nice to see if they, cms, mmg, etc etc, make the claimed power or a % above/below of that claimed power on the same rr, same day.

[WrightStuff]

was on my iphone, i was saying i drove a cms stage 3 (vxt'ed car) and was passenger in mmg stage 3 (stevea's car) and the difference was chalk and cheese power wise not intakes i have no idea on intake temps

in fact it doesnt really matter as vxt'ed doesnt have a charge cooler he uses standard intercooler and is way faster than steveA's mmg stage 3 with an intercooler so that actually makes vxt'ed a stage 2 which is faster than a stage 3 mmg!

but i forgot the mmg man can sell sand to the saudi arabians and you are the reason they created the phrase salesmans wet dream

Isn't Dave running ~280bhp ? I know he doesn't have the uprated ic or cc, but I can't remember what else he's done to get the power up above and beyond stage 2 (exhaust and remap). Maybe he can elaborate!!

[turbobob]

Have we had a MMG tuned car on a rolling road yet?

Genuine question before anybody gets super defensive.

Would that be a rolling road dyno that gives you + 20 hp or - 20 hp?

And I don't know if anyone has had one rolling roaded

@ Joe - so you are comparing two cars by driving one, and being a passenger in the other. Plus you didn't say what spec each of the cars were. Plus each car will be tuned to a level, but the performance will differ from car to car.

Finally, why has this thread been moved? No notification that it was going to be moved. No notification that it had been moved and where it had been moved to, and no reason why. For me it was in the right place, i.e. VX220 discussion. No?

[Seb.F]

No idea who moved it, but it seems relevant that, as they are a modification, related to tuning a car, that this is the right section for it...

[The Batman]

its been moved as its a tuning/modification not discussion about a standard vx220 stop being arsy and get your car on a dyno maybe its time to arrange a rolling road event also being a passenger it tends to make you feel like the car is faster as you are not in control so

[VXT Tim]

Have we had a MMG tuned car on a rolling road yet?

Genuine question before anybody gets super defensive.

Would that be a rolling road dyno that gives you + 20 hp or - 20 hp?

As long as the cars go on the same dyno on the same day with the same settings the end figure will be irrelevant, the difference between the cars figures will be key.

Edited by VXT Tim, 22 July 2011 - 02:51 PM.

[The Batman]

maybe there should be a couple of runs to see if the intercooler can handle more that one run at a certain power level awaits a certain person to comment with proof of this.. all be it not a mmg ic but an uprated one sold by another firm ...

[KurtVerbose]

Must resist. Think calm thoughts, think calm thoughts

Just think of sinking your face into a pair of large comforting breasts.

Or if you have a pair available, actually do it. Then let me have a go.