27 replies to this topic

[SimonM]

I've had a geo done but the car is handling even worse than before so I think I'll get an independent check. I think I just want the standard settings (I don't do any tracking) and looking at the TIS these are (in degrees): Camber : -0.1; +0.1; -0.2 Toe out : -0.03; -0; +0.03 Would someone mind explaining what these three figures for each setting are? Ta

[techieboy]

Left side, right side and overall toe/camber in degrees and minutes. That's about as near as totally straight as you can get. Too be honest, that sounds a bit too neutral.

[Crabash]

They dont tally and even if they did they are rubbish, if you had that amount of toe out or even so little toe in on the rear it would be letting go very easy.

[Crabash]

Sorry TB is prob right and that is only the front, but they don't add up anyway, -0.1 added to +0.1 = zero not -0.2

[chris_uk]

LEFT FRONT RIGHT FRONT - 1.60 CAMBER -1.65 0.05 TOE (out) 0.05 standard CASTER standard LEFT REAR RIGHT REAR - 2.70 CAMBER - 2.70 0.15 TOE (in) 0.15 FRONT RIDE HEIGHT REAR RIDE HEIGHT 100mm 110mm something like this is probably what your wanting really, maybe not so much neg camber tho.

[SimonM]

Yes - this is only the front and yes they don't seem to add up! To be honest I just want a standard road set up and not really bothered what this is. I had a wade through all the previous posts and just got completely lost with all the different types of settings people use/recommend. Hence I thought I'd look at the TIS.

[techieboy]

Where are you looking in TIS? I seem to find a different set of values here

[chris_uk]

I doubt them settings are just the front. Camber : -0.1; +0.1; -0.2 Toe out : -0.03; -0; +0.03 You wouldnt have -0.03 toe on the left wheel and +0.03 on the right.. you would crab along the road i think what you have there is -0.1 F -0.2 R << having a greater negative camber on the rear helps stability and looks like what you have -0.03 F << you want toe out at the front and toe in at the rear +0.03 R << it could be that - is toe out and + is toe in. (going from the TIS this is probably what it is and would be correct) if you toe out the rear wheels you will get oversteer and te back end will feel very loose.

Edited by chris_uk, 26 February 2011 - 12:48 PM.

[Crabash]

I would just get -0.3 to -0.5 deg camber per side on front and -1.8 to -2.00 deg on rear. For toe I work in mm and would go for 1mm out overall on front and 4mm in overall on rear, can be converted to deg but I can't be arsed. That is a mild setup and will feel good for the road.

Edited by Crabash, 26 February 2011 - 12:55 PM.

[SimonM]

Where are you looking in TIS? I seem to find a different set of values here

Can't seem to find a link to the TIS on the site but the settings are found under:

Standard Information Documentation
E Front Wheel Suspension, Wheel & Tyres
Front Wheel Alignment

[SimonM]

I would just get -0.3 to -0.5 deg camber per side on front and -1.8 to -2.00 deg on rear.
For toe I work in mm and would go for 1mm out overall on front and 4mm in overall on rear, can be converted to deg but I can't be arsed.
That is a mild setup and will feel good for the road.

Thanks - will the geo people be OK with mm or do I need to convert?

[Crabash]

I would just get -0.3 to -0.5 deg camber per side on front and -1.8 to -2.00 deg on rear.
For toe I work in mm and would go for 1mm out overall on front and 4mm in overall on rear, can be converted to deg but I can't be arsed.
That is a mild setup and will feel good for the road.

Thanks - will the geo people be OK with mm or do I need to convert?

Some will be able to convert some may not, some will prefer them in mm.
It's only a right angled triangle not hard to work out but you need the rim lip dia not the wheel dia. Prob an app for it if you have a smartphone. Did it myself a while ago but can't remember the dia now.

By the way the lesser neg camber would be less wear on tyres but not quite as nice to drive, prob not enough to bother you but you must retain the relationship front to rear as close as you can as the shims limit you to certain jumps in angle, i.e. you dont whack a deg on the front and leave the back alone, the balance has to remain. Beyond a simple setup like that you are into tweaking to your liking.

Edited by Crabash, 26 February 2011 - 01:19 PM.

[Arno]

Camber : -0.1; +0.1; -0.2
Toe out : -0.03; -0; +0.03

Numbers are listed as:

Setting, upper tolerance range, lower tolerance range

These are the factory settings for the front. Notation is a bt odd, but they mean a setting and an allowable tolerance:

Camber: Should be set -0.1 degree, but may be within a +0.1 to -0.2 degree range (so 'allowable' would be -0.3 to 0.0)

Tracking: -0.03 degree toe (negative == toe OUT), but within a 0 - +0.03 range, so 'allowable' toe is -0.03 to 0 (= dead ahead)

Bye, Arno.

[SimonM]

Thanks everyone!

[Aerodynamic]

Can I change camber front and rear without affecting the toe?

[Madmitch]

I always understood that on rear driven cars the front wheels had to be slightly toe in so that the tyre drag when moving pulls them back to parallel, conversly front drive cars should be toe out so that when under power they are pulled forward to parallel.  Wouldn't the figures above lead to excessive toe out on a VX?  Please explain someone.   

[techieboy]

Can I change camber front and rear without affecting the toe?

No. Changing one will affect the other.

[Nev]

@The OP, are you on standard OEM coil overs? If you are then you need to consider if they need a refresh, this can make a massive difference. 

 

Just concentrating on camber and toe will not on it's own yield a good drivable geometry, there are loads of other factors, like front to rear spring delta, front to rear bump delta, strength of front ARB, ride height etc. Also any wear on the joints (ball joints or bushes) or steering rack play a big part too. Everything is related and it's a real mine field.

 

 

Edited by Nev, 01 June 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Arno]

Can I change camber front and rear without affecting the toe?

 

Camber shims at the front are between the steering arm and the hub and changes to the camber will have virtually no effect on the toe.

 

On the rear there's a tiny effect on the toe when you add or delete shims as the toe-link is attached separately to the bottom of the upright but in my experience it's quite small and you can safely experiment with different camber settings before checking and possibly adjusting the toe afterwards. It doesn't change that much that you run the risk of suddenly going toe-out at the back or anything.

 

Bye, Arno.

[chris_uk]

I always understood that on rear driven cars the front wheels had to be slightly toe in so that the tyre drag when moving pulls them back to parallel, conversly front drive cars should be toe out so that when under power they are pulled forward to parallel.  Wouldn't the figures above lead to excessive toe out on a VX?  Please explain someone.   

Fwd usually toe out at the front and toe out at the rear to help turnin and rotation (race fwd not road). Rwd is usually set to toe in on the front to increase stability, the front usually toe out to help turn in and pointyness.